TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Easy to read QUESTIONS and ANSWERS

Discussion in 'Prop Firms' started by MichaelPatak, Sep 6, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hello everyone,

    Thanks for the great questions and discussion on the thread "TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here"

    We have created this thread to share with you all the Questions and Answers our group posted in response to your questions.

    My goal is to have this thread be a place to easily read through all of these Questions and Answers without fumbling thought the 50+ pages on that thread.

    Again thanks for asking great questions. Once we have all the Questions and Answers posted please feel free to ask questions on anything you would like use to expand on.

    Michael Patak
     
  2. Quote from colonial dr:

    Hi Michael

    Why do you charge $350+ for one combine that gives you the equalivant of a few thousand in perchasing power? (You will unplug people who do poorly, and you do not take positions past the close, so there really is no $150 k account -unless I'm wrong with all this) Granted your lowest combine is $100-$200, but this is for a very small account. One thing is for certain, it does NOT cost you $350 per 'combine' to run a sim account and evaluate. Brokers offer free demo accounts all year long with realtime data and broker-server order exchange. Where is the $350 going? I wonder how many get a refund...

    Also, why is there no information on employment on your website? When I checked it out, it was implied that a check would be mailed to the trader, even if they were young or in a foreign country. I doubt this is the case -if it's not, why not publish some more info?

    Many, such as gmst, HurricaneUS and myself (I view gmst and HUS as rich guys with excellent trading skills, like myself ;)) have at least some doubt about your operation. Given the vast number of "recruits" versus live traders, and given you ran an online gaming/gambling website very similar to topsteptrader in the past, it's logical to view TST as simply a clever revenue operation first, and a recruiting zone second.

    None of this is intended to be a provokation, just honest questions that myself and others have. Great looking website, and overall a cool idea...thanks for starting the thread -mike



    Colonial dr.. great questions...

    The Combine is our way of evaluating traders who can trade todays market. Many traders send their track records into prop firms or say they can trade. We simply ask, don’t tell us show us. This was the reason for the Combine. Track records of how great you where a year ago or whatever say nothing about how good you are today. This is also how many of the prop firms evaluate and test their traders before putting any capital behind them.

    The Combine has a fully refundable deposit. This holds all recruits accountable for their actions and adds skin in the game for them to gain the closest feel to trading a live market like they would in their personal account. Those in the Combine that complete the requirements found here: http://www.topsteptrader.com/deposit are given the opportunity to receive a full refund (and go their merry way at absouletly no cost to them) or roll their deposit over to a new Combine and use the expereince from the prior Combine to develop and move themselves forward to a profitable trading stategy/methodology.

    We have many recruits that receive a rollover as it is not terribly difficult to have a trading average greater than $0 at the end of your Combine and complete 2 of the 3 performance requirements while making sure 50% or more of the days traded are positive (greater than $0 for the day).

    To answer your question on the vast amount of recruits verse live traders you will need to look at the success of traders in the industry. The failure rate is so high it makes me sick, BUT it is the truth. Lets not argue it just know that that is what we are up against, much like any professional sport would have.

    I about fell into it failing and quitting entirely though I was able to find a prop firm that evaluated traders similar to the TST model when I was completely out of capital and wanted to continue doing something I loved. If forums/website/articles say the failure rate is 90% (which we would and the clearing firms brokerage house behind close doors say is higher) than our goal is to find the 10% of traders that are ready and develop the 90% into the 10% with time and repetition in the markets. Much like anything you need to continually do it over and over to get good and know what to fix.

    So to add to this, I had to humble myself and recognize something needed to change as I was not on the path that was putting money in my pocket or even showing any consistent results therefore I curbed my ego and traded with the prop firm on a sim with a $300 daily loss limit. This taught me patience conviction and instilled discipline. This allowed me to build up my trading. Eventually buying myself out of the prop firm and trading on my own.

    The road has never been easy but I was doing well which leads me to the gambling site that you mention. I do want to clarify that this was not a gambling site but a skilled based competition site by law (think golf tournaments at a local course where you pay an entry and win a price) that people could challenge each other on FIFA, Tiger woods, etc and win points or prizes. We did this in college, putting a pizza or whatever on the game before we played. It was fun and entertaining.

    To make a long story short. I along with a couple of other traders put money together to start this. I was trading at the time but another revenue stream is always nice. This did not pan out so we scrapped it and took a loss. No different than putting on a position. This was my position in another market..

    I hope that helps a bit.

    mp

    ps. From another post but quoting the same post:

    Colonial dr- I did forget to answer the first part in better detail... In the Combine you are not just on SIM. You get all the tools that a trader needs to develop.. For simplicity purposes and not being salesy I have a link to all the tools we offer ( its on the left hand side of the page): http://www.topsteptrader.com/membership

    Quickly- we have breaking news squawk box (typically ransquawk, trade the news, traders audio charge at least $125 a month just for this), an interactive chat room, an in-house trading psychologist that answer YOUR questions (trading psychologist charge $300 an hour or more, grant this is a group session but the point still holds), Scouts that at the end of your Combine call you and provide feedback, etc etc.. These are extremely costly and we eat this cost when a trader rolls over as a scratch trader (and that is typically the type of trader who is rolling over). A scratch trader is a sound trader that we want to continue to develop with us (again we scout for talent or those that show an increased aptitude for trading)
    __________________
    TopstepTrader is structured to educate, develop and fund traders.

    Learn more:
    http://www.topsteptrader.com/.

    Questions?
    Contact us: scouting@topsteptrader.com or +1-312-252-9858 .

    My TST profile:
    http://www.topsteptrader.com/ViewProfile/NEBRASKA/0/p/0
     
  3. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from ScalperJoe:

    Since the purpose of this thread was to ask "any and all questions" which would be answered by Patak, here is mine:

    1. How are you different than a deposit shop, when the current terms stipulate that the first $5,000 (or $10,000) of a trader's profits are held by the firm after they go live, and those terms are guided by a one year contract?


    The first $5,000 or $10,000 is a cushion PTP has traders build before they can start withdrawing funds. You must maintain a balance above this amount to withdraw funds. IF you terminate your trading for any reason the entire $5k or $10k is split between you and PTP.

    This ensure you do not start trading and then request a withdraw every two weeks when you have not established a profit cushion in your trading account.

    mp

    ps. there are a lot of question on this forum we have both John Hoagland at 1 (312) 212 0481 and Brian Welsh at 1 (312) 252 9858 as senior scouts available to answer your question. Please call their Trading floor desk line during normal market hours. Thanks.
     
  4. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from Shanb:

    You missed this question Mr. Patak. IMO that first question is a very important one, and depending on how you answer it will say alot about your organization and the type of people you are looking to bring aboard.



    Shanb:


    1. Do you have more then 12 traders who have net (before splits) at least 30+k? Do you have more then 4 traders who have cleared 100k (before splits)?

    We are a young company (Patak Trading Partners 2 1/2, TopstepTrader 2 years old) and to date we do not have more than 12 traders who have net (before splits) at least 30k+.

    We do give every trader who gets selected for funding the opportunity to produce profits of this caliber in the live market when they are backed by PTP. It is then the job of the trader to build their profits over time with proper trade and risk management.

    mp
     
  5. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from luckyputanski:

    Michael,
    Do I understand correctly that you will not back profitable traders with 5+ track record if they in drawdown last year, but you will back traders who got lucky with last 10-15 trades?


    Luckyputanksi- PTP does not back traders who do not successfully complete the Combine at TopstepTrader. The Combine has the same risk parameters as a trader who are funded by PTP. We want to see who trades todays market. Some traders can achieve this by showing 10 or 20 days of trading some do this over a couple Combine evaluations. Each trader is different on how well they are trading today verses how they traded in the past.

    mp
     
  6. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from JerryAdler:

    I only have one question: When are you going to get rid of the T4 platform? It's impossible to scale properly on the T4 because you can't build a template. It is very slow to adjust targets and stops. I understand that you might be offering the Ninja platform soon. On Ninja, you can build multiple templates to execute trades under different market conditions with one click.
    I would like to run my strategy again on TopStep when you have a better platform. Thanks.


    Jerry, NinjaTrader will be available to use in the program the beginning of October.
     
  7. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from traderCND:

    Michael,

    1. Is TopStepTrader a regulated entity? And if so, by whom?

    2. Who owns TopStep?

    3. Is Patak Trading Partners a regulated entity? And if so by whom?

    4. I see on the NFA website that you are "FLOOR BROKER REGISTERED". Do you hold any licenses or passed on proficiency exams?

    5. Who is Patak's broker and clearing firm?

    6. Since you are a floor broker, what is your involvement in the trades that are done by traders at Patak?

    Thank You.


    1) TopstepTrader is an trade educational firm and recruits talent for Patak Trading Partners. Patak Trading Partners is strictly proprietary capital and as such does not have to be registered with the NFA. I am registered as are others in our group but the Patak Trading Partners prop firm does not have to be as the funds are strictly proprietary.

    2) We do not release that information.

    3) Patak Trading Partners, LLC. is strictly a proprietary trading firm. Please review the NFA on the rules pertaining to prop firms that trade strictly proprietary capital.

    4) As mentioned above I (Michael Patak) am registered. http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet...Lf7994M=&rn=Y

    5) PTP clears Cunningham Commodities, LLC.

    6) My involvement is I oversee the activities of the funded traders.

    mp
     
  8. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from 2rosy:

    I am in Chicago and no firm does this. Does patak even have traders? Why when i search on linkedin there are no patak traders?


    2rosy- PTP has funded traders we are bringing recruits in the TopstepTrader program up on a weekly basis. We do NOT require them to add us on linkedin or anything like that. These are remote traders who are given the opportunity to showcase their talent LIVE and have earned that opportunity by showing they have followed TST evaluation criteria or if they choose to propose their own evaluation criteria they may send their proposal in for approval.

    http://www.topsteptrader.com/customevaluation

    mp

    __________________
    TopstepTrader is structured to educate, develop and fund traders.

    Learn more:
    http://www.topsteptrader.com/.

    Questions?
    Contact us: scouting@topsteptrader.com or +1-312-252-9858.

    My TST profile:
    http://www.topsteptrader.com/ViewProfile/NEBRASKA/0/p/0
     
  9. TST_Hoag

    TST_Hoag ET Sponsor

    Quote from snooptrdr:

    maybe someone from tst can comment on this... i can understand mav not wanting to comment.

    500 in the combine and 17 live?


    We have around 500 in the program with many under free trials, free traders that were live and now back in the Combine, many receiving refunds which are 90% of the time rolling that refund over to a new Combine, etc.

    TopstepTrader again is a trader education and recruiting firm a that is helping traders develop in the market without putting real capital in the markets.

    Patak Trading Partners has 27 funded traders currently. Though we do have traders that are getting brought up to live funding weekly adding to that number and some going back down to TopstepTrader's Combine which brings that number down. (think professional sports model, minor leagues is TopstepTrader and major Leagues is Patak Trading Partners)

    mp
     
  10. Quote from Lucias:

    Michael,

    Thank you for taking the time to answer questions. I think the most important question is whether or not you really fund traders. I know that you do provide some funding but if your program and rules are realistic then you should have several traders who've achieved more significant success.

    So my questions are simple:

    1. Do you have more then 12 traders who have net (before splits) at least 30+k? Do you have more then 4 traders who have cleared 100k (before splits)?

    2. Do you make more from the combine fees or from trader's trading profits?

    3. If a trader hits their daily loss limit after going live over 1 session or multiple sessions, what happens? And how do they get back to live trading? Say my loss limit is $500.. I'm cleared for live. I'm down $250 first day then $250 next day, would I be sent back to sim? If yes, how do I get back to live? How many days am I down? Let's say it happens again, do you have a dollar cut off for traders and if so what is it for each funding tier?

    4. Are you a CME exchange member and if yes then why don't you pass on those savings to your traders?

    Since going live trading the ES about 6 months ago, I've did extremly well, imo. I don't want to be down from trading to trade in sim. I know you have a custom combine for successful traders. What types of things do you make adjustments for in the custom combine?

    Also, I look forward to when you add Ninjatrader. I use OEC and their DOM is rock solid. I tried the T4 DOM and had many problems.



    1. Do you have more then 12 traders who have net (before splits) at least 30+k? Do you have more then 4 traders who have cleared 100k (before splits)?

    First, to clarify, TopstepTrader is a trader education and recruitment firm, that feeds its talent to Patak Trading Partners. Patak Trading Partners financially backs the traders.

    Patak Trading Partners does not disclose information on the traders that they capitalize or the status of their accounts. That is private information.

    Any individual who is interested in becoming a Recruit or is currently a Recruit with TST, receives ALL information that directly affects them: the Combine requirements to become a funded trader AND the requirements for Funded Traders to remain trading on the account.

    The financials of current funded traders in no way affects any potential Recruits or Funded Traders.

    2. Do you make more from the combine fees or from trader's trading profits?

    Combine fees are fully refundable, the requirements to receive a deposit refund can be found here: http://www.topsteptrader.com/deposit. The TopstepTrader model isn’t to churn these fees. We are a source of education and an opportunity. The goal is to financially back traders who prove their results within the structure of our Combines. Clearly there are multiple ways to generate revenue within our structure, however, the largest source of that is and always has been the financial backing of sound, disciplined traders.

    3. If a trader hits their daily loss limit after going live over 1 session or multiple sessions, what happens? And how do they get back to live trading? Say my loss limit is $500.. I'm cleared for live. I'm down $250 first day then $250 next day, would I be sent back to sim? If yes, how do I get back to live? How many days am I down?

    Our traders are allowed to lose twice the amount of their daily loss limit (BELOW the initial balance). Therefore, if a trader is trading a $150K account, we are willing to risk $6K on them. If a trader hits his loss limit ($500-$3000) he would be sent back to the Combine. These requirements are only in place UNTIL an account cushion has been built ($5K for $30K and $50K accounts and $10K for $100K and $150K accounts). Once an account cushion has been built, virtually all expectations/requirements are lifted off the trader.

    IF a trader’s performance is not living up to expectations, the trader is offered the opportunity to return to the Combine to continue to develop as a trader and work towards getting their live account back. If a funded trader is sent back to the Combine, meets the objectives set forth and is then taken back to funded trader status, they start with the account balance reset and the trader does NOT have to make up their losses. ALL losses beyond the initial account balance are absorbed by the Patak Trading Partners.

    4. Are you a CME exchange member and if yes then why don't you pass on those savings to your traders?

    As previously answered on a different thread: Yes, Patak Trading Partners is a CME exchange member. Patak Trading Partners is not a discounted brokerage house. We can not compete with commissions of discounted brokerage houses. This is what Patak Trading Partners has worked out with our clearing firm. It is fair. If we have high volume traders (which we do not) then we can go back to the clearing firm and work something out as we will work to retain any talent that we find. That is not in the cards at this time. To add to this, there are no platform fees cost for squawk, or any other tools as a funded trader (excluding the advanced charting option that the platform provider debits the trading account of the funded trader if they request that they want it).

    5. Since going live trading the ES about 6 months ago, I've did extremly well, imo. I don't want to be down from trading to trade in sim. I know you have a custom combine for successful traders. What types of things do you make adjustments for in the custom combine?

    We always accept custom Combine objective proposals: http://www.topsteptrader.com/customevaluation. As an example of some of the exceptions or agreements we have made: there have been lowered profit targets and adjusted performance requirements. Strategies and methods differ, therefore we are willing to work with a Recruit on an individual basis in order to provide them the best and most fair opportunity for funding.

    6. Also, I look forward to when you add Ninjatrader. I use OEC and their DOM is rock solid. I tried the T4 DOM and had many problems.

    We are very excited about the changes forthcoming. NinjaTrader is a dynamic platform that many individuals are comfortable with. By offering Ninja in our program it serves to better represent our Recruits and their trading abilities should that be their preferred platform.
     
    #10     Sep 6, 2012
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.