Socialised health care in Canada poll

Discussion in 'Economics' started by moneymonger, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Just had a fierce debate with a friend of mine about USA healthcare. We are both US citizens. He claims that Canadians
    lOVE their Socialised Medical system. I presume that is true
    because Canadians continue to support the status quo. However,
    I have heard reports through the media that Canadians who need expediated care for serious diseases and conditions are
    SOL. The wait times for CT scans,MRI,s and Oconological care
    are horendiously long. Oftentimes, these diseases progress
    because of this latency of care. Is this true? Are Canadaians
    on this board satisfied with their system?
    I do realise the faults of the American system: excessive costs,
    corrupt insurance companies, lack of quality medicinal marijuana in most parts of the country.
  2. Mvic


    This debate is easier served when you split healthcare in two parts:

    1. well patient care or minor primary care issues, chronic condition care, preventative care
    2.Emergency care (that rises to a level beyond the scope of the primary care provider) and inpatient care.

    Canada and most of the free care systems excel at the 1st and do ok with the second due to their limited funding.
    The US failes abysmally at the first and excels at the 2nd for those who can afford the inpatient part. The fact is that with the amount that the US spends per capita on healthcare there is no reason (other than the HMO's and the lawyers who suck up 40 odd % of each healthcare dollar spent in the US while adding nothing of value to patient care) why we should not be excelling at both 1 and 2 universally.
  3. As someone who was a victim of the Canadian health care system let me tell you how TERRIBLE it is.

    It literally KILLS hundreds if not thousands of people each year.

    Here are the reasons:

    1. Long delays in critical procedures.

    As an example, I had an operation that developed an infection but because the cost of MRI and wait was so long it took 2 weeks before I could get one. By this time it had grown to dangerous levels and if I had waited much longer it would have killed me.

    I see this all the time.

    The doctors have their hands tied because they can't do anything but deal with the government bureaucracy and it takes years even to make small changes while people rot.

    2. The brightest doctors in Canada leave and go to the US where they get paid up to 5x as much. So what this does is leave us with the second best (as a generalization) there are "some" great doctors in Canada but few and far between.

    These are the 2 primary reasons why the Canadian system sucks.

    If your healthy Canada is great because you'll only need it for small stuff.

    If your a sick person or you become sick the Canadian system is down right dangerous and deadly.

    To say that Canadians like our system is not true. The truth is our political parties use it as a tool for election and votes.

    The whole thing is DISGUSTING.

    A 2 tier system is the best of both worlds and that would be optimal.

    Let the wealthy or the sick pay for attention when required and let the status quo stand in line for free when they need it.
  4. My family lives in Canada. My aged uncle can barely walk because of a pinched nerve. It's been two weeks and he is still on the waiting list to see a specialist. The screwy part is that he used to be a surgeon in the Soviet Union and he doesn't think the Canadian health care system is much better.

    I lived in Europe, the model of healthcare that liberals in America breathlessly want, and the suckitude is beyond the scope of a message board. People die of shit in Europe that Americans would never even think of. What passes for "healthcare" is being on a health care list....for months.

    The UN hates the U.S. (a family member works for the WHO and the hatred of any country that doesn't want to submit whole-heartedly to the U.N. rule is fierce) and consistently posts bogus statistics. It routinely ranks the U.S. low in healthcare rankings but also routinely ignores the way the data is collected for those rankings.

    For example, The U.S. infant mortality stats are inflated because preemies born at 500g (which have a 50% mortality rate) are considered a live birth and then a death. Almost everywhere else, the death of a 500g preemie is considered a fetal death, making U.S. mortality statistics look worse. In Europe, they don't even bother trying to save these preemies. Also, because the U.S. is a wealthier country, we have more women subjecting themselves to fertility treatments, which result in more multiple fetus pregnancies and multiple fetus pregnancies result in more preemies. None of the U.N. statistics are normalized for such differences, making comparisons a joke, but they use them anyway.

    That's just one example
  5. achilles28


    Canadian healthcare is over-rated. Most of the criticism is deserved.

    Long waits for specialists, CT, MRI. surgery, critical surgery etc.

    While American doctors run a litany of tests and panels as a defensive measure against lawsuits, Canadian doctors seem to favor the opposite. Tests and panels are sparingly awarded. Examinations are disturbingly cursory. MDs', Specialists rush patients through as Government comp is based per patient.

    The flip-side - any one can see a doctor or get necessary surgery, for free. Which is good.
  6. You mean at no incremental cost to them. Unless, of course, you consider a wait list a cost - which I do.
  7. I emphatically stated in my argument that the USA already has a
    hybrid socialised system: those who are in need of immediate
    care are given treatment regardless of their ablitiy to pay. Patients who are financially needy are rendered care but have to wait just like in SOCIALISED medicine countries! Many who support socialised medicine in the USA have an illusion that everyone will given expedited treatment. Only the people who
    can expediate payment will be given expediated care. This is true of all countries on earth.

    Many social idealists (the John Lennon types)can never seem to get this
  8. taodr


    A few years ago my wife was scheduled to have her gall bladder removed. The date set was early october. This date was set eight months before as the surgeon was " booked up" . Two days before the surgery , we received a phone call from the surgeons office that "the surgeons QUOTA has been exceeded, therefore next available surgery would be in early January. Never mind my wife was in serious pain for months.

    Canadians have been fooled that health care is FREE. Meantime they pay loads of taxes which invariably costs as much as if not more than in usa.
  9. JOSEF


    <I>You mean at no incremental cost to them. Unless, of course, you consider a wait list a cost - which I do.</I>

    In several countries where they have socialized health care, there is an option for people that want to avoid the waiting lists. By paying a little bit extra, they can have priority in the waiting lists. For example, I believe Sweden has this. It appears to work well from what I have hard.

    By the way, as I mentioned in a previous posting, I have a friend who has cancer. Here in the US, she will never have health insurance because of her pre-existing condition. Not a fun situation. In France/Sweden or where ever, she only has to worry about her illness. Here in the US she has to worry about both her illness and how to pay for it.
  10. achilles28



    The US model is workable if liability caps were instituted and graduate caps repealed.
    #10     Feb 9, 2009