socialism in America.

Discussion in 'Economics' started by zdreg, Mar 21, 2018.

is socialism coming to America?

Poll closed Apr 30, 2018.
  1. yes

    12 vote(s)
    41.4%
  2. no

    9 vote(s)
    31.0%
  3. yes in the form of crony capitalism

    6 vote(s)
    20.7%
  4. yes in the form of too much regulation

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  1. tomorton

    tomorton


    Careful! or I shall be forced to resort to Wikipedia.
     
    #41     Mar 22, 2018
  2. By the same token, point to a successful pure capitalist country? :) There is a lot of no true Scotsman fallacy in these discussions across the internet.

    I was chatting with a boomer retiree here who was classic in that communism and socialism were the same thing, so Hitler was a communist because of Nazi National "Socialist"..

    In a university economics setting, terms and definitions are agreed so people are at least in the same ballpark of understanding each other. One cannot get anywhere useful without some order, either in a capitalist or socialist setting and the *libertarians in Galt's Gulch Chile really learned that lesson. :)


    *Seriously though, how could anyone think libertarian society could work like that, did they even see how Stalin just gamed and dominated the idealistic Bolsheviks? They are different to communist, but like Marx, Rand was not in touch with reality. A similar thing happened with them, a predator screwed them over.


    Edited: I wrote this not seeing the last few posts on definition issues. Just to add to the pyre.
     
    #42     Mar 22, 2018
  3. Yeah, I've got strong opinions about Rand, too. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    #43     Mar 22, 2018
    Slartibartfast likes this.
  4. tomorton

    tomorton


    The western countries discussed all became wealthy through pure capitalism (and imperialism abroad) - the US did not turn socialist and become rich, it was founded on capitalist ideals with a tightly restricted government and then the people went ahead and made it rich.

    But likewise the UK, the western European states, Scandinavia and Japan. They have progressively adopted various socialist style policies but that was after they had become wealthy through pure capitalism.
     
    #44     Mar 22, 2018
    NeoTrader likes this.
  5. That and the Marshal Plan. Let's not forget that global growth through the 1970s was largely a byproduct of that massive government spending.
     
    #45     Mar 22, 2018
  6. tomorton

    tomorton


    I did think of the Marshal Plan when I posted but where do you suppose that money came from?
     
    #46     Mar 22, 2018
  7. zdreg

    zdreg

    forget about the rest of the US but Maui is the greatest place on the planet:D
     
    #47     Mar 22, 2018
  8. Sig

    Sig

    So Germany didn't have a penny to their name or any infrastructure to speak of after WWII, Belgium, France, Netherlands not much better. And even if you take Marshall Plan money into account, they were by no means wealthy countries when the Marshall Plan ended. But they have managed to increase the size of their economies by many multiples in the intervening 60 years....without being "pure capitalist" countries.
    To put actual numbers to it, let's look at Finland. They went from a GDP of $53B in 1980 to $236B in 2016, per capita GDP from $11,000 to $43,000 (adjusted for inflation). And this huge expansion was during the time they had the most socialist policies in their history. (note the effect is even more dramatic for somewhere like Norway, I chose Finland because there's very little confounding impact from factors like natural resources). Again I think empirically there's little support for the fallacy that wealth only comes from "pure" capitalism and anything not pure capitalism drags an economy down, or that any socialist aspect of an economy are only being propped up by the "pure" capitalists. It is simply not reflected in the real economic data.

    Turns out that free at the point of service healthcare, despite the fact that it costs money, can actually save the overall economy a significant amount because of productivity impacts. Turns out sick leave, even though it costs a company money with a naive view, might actually in aggregate save money from fewer contagious illness days and faster recovery times. Turns out keeping the elderly healthy and not requiring them to eat cat food might actually make them less of a drag on an economy, not more. And that's before you put a value on the overall happiness of your population that doesn't have to worry about getting wiped out by medical bills, a stint without a job, or simply old age; GDP isn't everything. It's an Ayn Randian fallacy that only "pure" capitalism creates value.
     
    #48     Mar 22, 2018
  9. NeoTrader

    NeoTrader

    It's simply too damn funny to see leftists/socialists/communists getting triggered like that...:D And all the hate from these "people" towards people like Ayn Rand is simply a tribute to her and others like her... :)

    Cracks me up... Every time...:D

    :cool:;)
     
    #49     Mar 22, 2018
  10. zdreg

    zdreg

    and the communist apologists will tell you that none of these countries were communist.
    people justify their political views in the face of reality. in psychology it is call cognitive dissonance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
     
    #50     Mar 22, 2018