The thing that seems to bug most the people here is the short amount of time given if you do bad at the start. Again, IT IS THERE MONEY, not yours. They are also very up front about it, so I do not see it as a problem. That question has been asked before to Mike in the chat, and he has never dodged that question. Also, if you are a good trader as you all seem to claim, go for the 150k combine for a higher risk limit. The rules for getting a refund are not that onerous and when you go live. Lower the risk down some to make that 6k go a little farther. Am I in love with the tight risk limit? No I'm not, but it is their money. They do want people to succeed, but as they never formally meet people, I would never expect them to allow people to lose 10-40k on an account. I will also say that I have met Patak before, and he is a good guy. The combines don't pay the bills as I believe a large enough amount of people are able to get refunds and the amount of services offered. What they are trying to do is build a group of loyal traders that will stay with them for years. This normally happens by getting a trader that is young and giving him that chance to thrive. Traders that have been in the business for 5-10 years are much less likely to have loyalty to a prop firm. That is my opinion. For those bashing Mav, he seems like the most professional person here. If I lived in Chicago, I'd definitely want to meet him and ask for any advice etc for what to do as he seems to know his shit. Mav has never said this is the ultimate route to go on, but it is legitimate and may be the best chance people can get without using your own money. I'd like to ask how many traders on here would even back other traders? Answer is probably few to none. Is TsT for everyone, no it isn't, but the squawk does give some good information on breaking news that most retail traders would not get in a timely manner and you get a good charting program. Getting all that for $100-200/month is in itself a good deal. Add on the chance to get a live account as a main or supplemental account, and I think it is a winning proposition.
I didn't miss that. Have any of you heard of the concept of natural curiosity? When a subject is being discussed, you google something that is mentioned in passing and discover stuff you otherwise would have been oblivious to? I do that all the time and find it very rewarding. Then again I may just be a dinosaur.
Gmst, I explained in detail how I came about TST and what my interest is in this. If you don't want to accept that, fine, let's move on. I think I see where our communication breakdown is. See, I don't have an issue with TST because the rules are given before hand. Every one knows what they are. If you read the rules and don't like them, you can either change them or pass on the combine. Very simple. When I first told Lucias about TST my original concern was not the rules, but rather what if you followed the rules and they did not abide by the agreement. That IS a big deal to me. Now we're on to something here. I have a problem with ANYBODY that does not follow through on their word. From what I can tell seeing all the guys they back week after week, it appears that they are following through on their word. I have no real interest in debating the rules or how hard something is because it's your choice, you don't have to do it. Nobody is making you. If I don't like IB's software, I don't have to open an account with them. If I don't want to use REDI, I don't have to join Bright Trading. If I think E-signal's charts are too expensive, I don't don't have to use them. I honestly don't understand the controversy here. Now, if I find out that they are not backing traders who do follow ALL the rules as listed, then I will say something. I've looked at the rules and I don't like them or dislike them. They are what they are. The whole trailing stop rule does NOT apply on the combine and only applys on live accounts the first 5k. After that, it's gone. Gmst, here is what one should offer Michael. Take off the trailing stop rule but if the trader's account goes negative, they have to pay with their own money to do the combine again. It's called compromise. I'm sure they would take that. I understand why they do it. At one of the prop firms I use to trade at where we did back guys, we implemented a similar rule. We would tell guys to stop trading when they were up a certain amount of money for the first month or two. We were looking out for their best interest as we wanted them to build a little bit of equity. There is nothing more depressing for a new trader then going profitable at the beginning and then giving it all back. Anyway, enough on that. Please people, be civil to each other. Don't accuse anybody of anything until you have the facts. If you think the rules are too strict, move on. We are never going to come to an agreement here on what the rules should be so it's pointless debating them.
I don't think ive every found myself agreeing with you Lucias lol, but yea the answer is troubling so far. Maybe after the holiday weekend, Patak could at least give some insight into the issue. Nobody is asking for private info on traders, just a little insight into whether the program is actually working lol!
Shan, I can tell you right now that there program is not anymore successful then anywhere else's. Come on dude, we both know this game. You worked at Avatar. How many guys made money over there? At VTrader, we had over 120 traders, I would guess less then 10 of those accounts were profitable and most of them were market makers. Hell, we had to shut down our entire market making program because we were getting killed on over head. And Mark Fisher? Remember him Shan? Yeah, he shut down his entire prop desk and shut down his 100 million dollar fund. Why? Because guys weren't making money. We both know the deal. Very few of these guys will ever see long term success. It doesn't matter if they work for Avatar, Fisher or TST. TST probably has even less success because they are attracting guys who probably should not be trading. They don't have the background or the knowledge or the ability. But I'm a free market guy and I'm never going to tell anyone that they can't do something. Let them try, let them fail. That's life. Some people want a chance. This business is tough for long term discretionary traders. Not impossible, just tough. And it tends to attract all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons. Jesse Livermore said it best, over the years, the markets never change, only the players.
Look its simple, he asked a question that I thought was appropriate. The answer still hasn't been given. I don't have all the problems with the rules that many of the guys have in here. It's their program and PTK's money and they make the rules! Its upto the consumer to decide if they want to partake in the program. Considering how many people have gone through the combine and have been backed I would expect at least a small number to be making a decent sum of money here. 3%, 5%, 10%? IDK the exact number, but to me this is a very important insight into their operation as it would be for any firm backing traders.
Why don't you just try the combine if you are so sure of your trading talent ? Your other choice is to fund yourself. Not sure of your circumstances but it takes very little to trade index futures intraday which is exactly what tst requires you to do in the combine. Surely you can find a way to scrape up enough to back yourself. Get a second job, borrow against an asset you already own, tap a credit card, sell something you own. Real traders find solutions to make things happen. If you want it bad enough you will find one.
I'm coming at this from a neutral perspective. I have no bias and honestly don't have any personal interest in any of Patak's offerings. I'm just partaking in this little conversation we have going on here. You don't need to tell me this business is tough lol. This business is like any other...the majority fail. This thread was created for questions for TST and PTK Trading Partners. Simple, lets keep it on topic!
This is what I find fascinating as well. Why not do thorough research on your own and talk directly with the firm instead of spending all this time here discussing interpretations and rumors about their model? Personally, I had a few concerns with their model and if it were even realistic for me at all to be successful following their parameters. Because of this, I booked a call with one of their scouts to talk to them directly and get it confirmed once and for all. My main concerns was if there was a profit objective AFTER completing the Combine and going live and exactly how the trailing stop rule worked. If it were on open profits, it would put severe limitations on my trading, but learning that it was on realized profits, it definitely was something I could live with and even condone on my own. I also learned that there were no profit objectives on the live account and a few other things as well. I know what I`m going to and I know what to expect. It is my choice to take it or not. I completely understand why they have strict performance criteria and I would not have done it differently myself if I were putting forth money and backing traders. Now, if it is true that there are people who have successfully completed the Combine, but not allowed to go live, that is of course a major concern and definitely something I would be interested in finding out of. But the model as I understand it is solid and attractive to me.