Yawn....... Israel attacked by Hamas

Discussion in 'Politics' started by themickey, Oct 7, 2023.

  1. themickey

    themickey

    upload_2025-5-15_5-58-44.jpeg
    Donald Trump is seen posing with a photo of Edan Alexander on Oct. 7, 2024 in New York City. (Michael M. Santiago/Getty Images)
     
    #5191     May 14, 2025
  2. themickey

    themickey

    Gaza peace, is like pushing shit uphill.
     
    #5192     May 14, 2025
  3. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading


    Got rid of Mohammed Sinwar and the next terrorist leader in line as well. Two-for-one.

    Hamas Rafah brigade commander probably killed in IDF strike on Sinwar
    Mohammad Shabanah was potentially next in line to lead Hamas; New next in line: Gaza Brigade Chief al-Hadad.
    https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-853971
     
    #5193     May 14, 2025
  4. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    Trump now pitching taking over Gaza to the Arab countries.

    Trump says US should take over Gaza Strip, turn it into a 'freedom zone'
    This is the first time he has said this to Arab leaders in a formal setting, notably while in Qatar, which has played a major role in mediating the Gaza deal.
    https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-854120
     
    #5194     May 15, 2025
  5. themickey

    themickey

    Trump’s Trip Lays Bare a Stark Advantage Some Arab States Have Over Israel

    The dynamics are shifting in the Middle East under a U.S. president who sees the world through a financial lens.

    [​IMG]
    President Donald Trump walks with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman during an official state arrival ceremony at the Saudi Royal Court on May 13, 2025, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. | Win McNamee/Getty Images

    By Nahal Toosi 05/14/2025
    https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...tes-advantges-trump-middle-east-trip-00348564

    As word spread that the Arab country of Qatar may give President Donald Trump a luxury airplane, Israeli citizens passed around a suggestion in chat groups on how to match that offer: giving Trump his own parking spot in the traffic nightmare that is Tel Aviv.

    It was a joke, of course. But it underscored a reality that’s dawning on Israelis like never before as Trump tours the Middle East this week. Compared with many of its neighbors, Israel doesn’t have much in the way of tangible financial benefits to offer a U.S. president whose preferred form of statecraft is economic.

    American presidents from both parties have long offered near-unconditional support for Israel. But Trump has famously brought a far more transactional — and some argue corrupt — approach to the presidency, especially in his second term. He wants deals, deals and more deals, whether it’s to materially aid the American people or himself and his family.

    Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates — all of which Trump is visiting this week — are offering to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in the U.S., let their affiliated companies ink deals with Trump family businesses and purchase mind-boggling amounts of American weapons. On Tuesday, Saudi Arabia alone pledged to invest $600 billion in the U.S., including $142 billion in arms sales.

    Israel, on the other hand, relies on billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars every year to help it buy weapons — and it must soon renegotiate a major deal involving that military aid. It is not a petrostate, a main reason it lacks the riches of the Gulf Arab countries. Israel also is mired in an expensive war in the Gaza Strip that has cost tens of thousands of lives and that Trump wants to see end.

    When I asked current and former U.S. and Israeli officials about what, if anything, Israel could do to match the financial largesse of the Gulf Arab countries, the answer was blunt: Nothing.

    Israel has strengths — including its political connections in Washington, its security, technological and intelligence cooperation with the U.S., and the sheer history of partnership. Many Americans feel a special connection to the country because it is home to the holy sites of several religions. But when it comes to this U.S. president and this moment, the lack of Israeli economic offerings poses a potential disadvantage in its ability to influence Trump. And it doesn’t help that Israel is a country with constant, complex needs.

    As Shira Efron, an Israeli analyst, put it to me: “Trump is about Trump and America First, right?”

    She caveated her comments by stressing that economics is just one of many dimensions in the U.S.-Israel relationship but pointed out: “He’s going to the Arab countries and they’re treating him like royalty. There’s a Trump golf course, a hotel, a plane, all these things. It’s a question of at what point do they want to use this economic leverage they have with him to ask him to please curb Israel in Gaza and Iran and stabilize the region?”

    There are signs that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is aware that the Arab countries may have growing sway.

    Word leaked Monday that Netanyahu had told Israeli lawmakers his country needed to wean itself off of U.S. military aid, which amounts to some $4 billion a year. Doing so could please Trump, as well as a strain within the Republican Party that questions U.S. benevolence toward Israel. Trump and many of his supporters have broadly pushed the idea that America’s allies should spend more of their own funds on defense. Netanyahu’s reported comments also come as both countries begin to think through what will follow the 10-year agreement between the U.S. and Israel on foreign military aid that expires in 2028.

    Under Trump, Israeli officials “should be preparing for a much more transactional kind of negotiation, a major emphasis on what Israel will do for the United States and what the United States will gain from the memorandum of understanding,” Dan Shapiro, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, told me.

    Another sign that Israel is aware of the growing influence of Arab countries on Trump: Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Sa’ar suggested that it was time for his government to get on good terms with the new leadership in Syria — a pivot many Arab states would love to see. Trump said Tuesday he’d lift U.S. sanctions on Syria and that he was doing so in part to please his host that day, Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler Mohammed Bin Salman.

    “Oh, what I do for the crown prince,” Trump said as he announced the decision.

    The glamour the energy-rich Arab countries are able to offer Trump this week — the Israeli hotel where U.S. presidents stay can’t match the lodgings in the Gulf Arab states — isn’t the only thing grating on U.S.-Israeli ties and the Trump-Netanyahu relationship in particular. While Trump made numerous actions in his first term that pleased Netanyahu and the right wing in Israel, this time around, he’s acting in ways that have startled and displeased the Israeli leader and his associates.

    The list includes, but is not limited to, Trump’s decision to enter nuclear talks with Iran instead of signing off on Israeli strikes against Tehran’s atomic infrastructure; his move to agree to a ceasefire with Houthi rebels that apparently didn’t cover attacks on Israel; the circumstances surrounding the release of an American hostage by Hamas militants who still hold many Israelis captive; and talk that Trump may enter in a civil nuclear agreement with Saudi Arabia even if the Saudis do not normalize relations with the Israeli government. (In the wake of the war in Gaza, Riyadh has been unwilling to normalize ties unless Israel agrees to a pathway to a Palestinian state.)

    Trump notably did not include Israel on his list of stops in this Middle East swing, the first major foreign trip of his second term. And one of his main envoys to the region is reported to have told families of hostages that the Israeli government is unwilling to end the war in Gaza, despite Trump’s desire for a ceasefire and full hostage release. (Israel this week planned to send officials to Qatar to engage in hostage talks.)

    The White House dismisses talk of rifts. “Israel has had no better friend in its history than President Trump,” National Security Council spokesperson James Hewitt said to me. The Israeli Embassy in Washington said the relationship “is based on shared values and a commitment to regional and global stability.”

    Trump has been back in the White House less than six months, and he’s so mercurial that everything could be different by the time he hits that half-year mark. Israel could take many steps beyond what Netanyahu and Sa’ar have mentioned to ingratiate itself further, including increasing intelligence and security cooperation. Israel could also pledge that its future military spending, wherever the money comes from, will boost the U.S. defense industry even more.

    Israel could, for instance, use its experience in missile defense, specifically its Iron Dome program, to help Trump achieve his goal of a similar shield system for the U.S., said Rob Satloff, executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

    For now, the feeling in the Israeli establishment is one of anxiety — not least because Trump is seen as someone they cannot cross.

    If President Joe Biden took the steps Trump has taken in these past few months, “everyone in Israel, including the government, would have lost their minds and called him anti-Israel,” an Israeli official told me. But the relationship with Trump — not to mention Republicans, whom Netanyahu has cultivated while largely dissing Democrats — is different. Netanyahu doesn’t want Trump to publicly rebuke him the way he did Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the official said. I granted the official anonymity because they weren’t authorized to speak on the issue.

    “There are private conversations criticizing Trump that are cautiously leaked, mainly through Israeli media, but people are extremely careful not to speak out publicly,” the official said.

    Netanyahu is limited by domestic politics as well as his ambitions. He wants to stay in power (which could help him triumph over corruption charges), but that means weighing the demands of far-right coalition partners who want to take over Gaza, push out its 2.2 million Palestinian inhabitants and annex the West Bank. So far he has largely gone along with the demands of the Israeli far right that the war against Hamas militants in Gaza continue.

    Trump might have, probably unwittingly, boxed in Netanyahu by floating a proposal to evict Gaza’s Palestinians and turning the territory into an American-run resort destination. The idea galvanized the Israeli far right, which now lords it over Netanyahu.

    Much of the international community denounced the plan as a crime against humanity. But, in a way, it fits with Trump’s view of the world, which tends to value material and economic stability above political rights, according to a U.S.-based analyst with connections on all sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Gaza has been pulverized after more than a year of war, and Trump doesn’t understand why anyone would want to stay there. “It’s not him being like, ‘screw the Palestinians,’” the analyst said. “He’s like, ‘Why would you want to live there? Go have a beautiful life somewhere else.’”

    The person stressed that Israel not only is at a disadvantage financially, but it also frustrates Trump because it has so many demands and needs. “Stop being so annoying,” the analyst said. (I agreed not to name this person because they were reluctant to damage relationships with the involved parties).

    Netanyahu could gain many points with Trump if he were to wrap up the war in Gaza. That’s a statement I heard from several current and former U.S. officials. But they tended to accompany it with a joke: Ending the war could mean that Trump wins a Nobel Peace Prize!

    It’s not a plane, but it is a bit of bling. And an ego boost to boot.
     
    #5195     May 15, 2025
  6. themickey

    themickey

    Opinion
    Call me a self-hating Jew, but what Israel is doing in Gaza is indefensible

    David Leser Senior freelance writer May 16, 2025
    https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle...-in-gaza-is-indefensible-20250515-p5lzez.html

    Dear faithful supporters of Israel, Jewish and non-Jewish. And dear everyone else who may – or may not – know what to think about this diabolical conflict, but is loath to say so for fear of being labelled antisemitic or, in my case, a self-hating Jew.

    Time to get clearer on what antisemitism means.

    According to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition, adopted in Bucharest in 2016, antisemitism includes the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology. It includes accusing Jews of “controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions”; or of denying the facts of the Holocaust.

    [​IMG]
    A Palestinian woman mourns her son, killed in an Israeli airstrike in Jabalia, northern Gaza Strip, on Wednesday. Credit: AP

    It covers labelling Jews as “Christ killers”, or claiming they conspire to harm humanity; that they’re more loyal to Israel than other countries; that, regardless of political or religious leaning, they are collectively responsible for Israel’s conduct.

    This IHRA definition has been officially adopted by more than 40 countries, including Australia, but has been criticised for its undue emphasis on Israel. Among its detractors are hundreds of leading scholars of Holocaust history, Jewish studies, antisemitism studies and Middle East studies who, in 2020, issued a competing definition known as the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism. (Many of the scholars are Jewish.)

    This new definition was drafted because the IHRA definition was thought to muzzle legitimate debate about Israel/Palestine and Zionism; that it was better to remove the “state issue” from the question of antisemitism to help clear confusion and to combat real and growing antisemitism. (This Jerusalem Declaration has drawn strong criticism for being too soft on antisemitism.)

    [​IMG]
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.Credit: Graphic by Marija Ercegovac/AP photo

    The IHRA definition insists that it is antisemitic to call Israel’s existence a “racist endeavour”, even though Israel has effectively built an apartheid system of domination over another people. (But are Jews a race, religious group, ethnicity, culture, people or nation? Discuss.)

    The IHRA definition contends it is antisemitic to compare contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis, despite Israel being accused before the International Court of Justice of violating the Genocide Convention, a charge supported by a growing number of countries, human rights organisations and the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories. (Israel rejects these accusations as “an obscene inversion of reality”.)
    Under the IHRA definition, it could be antisemitic for Daniel Blatman, head of the Institute for Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, to say – as he did recently: “I’ve studied the Holocaust for 40 years. I’ve read countless testimonies about the most horrific genocide of all, against the Jewish people and other victims. However, the reality in which I would read accounts about mass murder committed by the Jewish state (in Gaza) that, in chilling resemblance, remind me of testimonies from [the Holocaust] – this I could not have foreseen even in my worst nightmares.”

    Under the IHRA definition, no vehement critic of Israel is safe from the accusation of antisemitism – no student protester nor vice chancellor, no media boss nor journalist, no politician, institutional leader, artistic director, artist, colleague or friend.

    The Jerusalem Declaration says that hostility to Israel can be an expression of “antisemitic animus”, but it can also be a reaction to human rights violations, or “the emotion that a Palestinian feels on account of their experience at the hands of the Israeli state. In short, judgement and sensitivity are needed in applying these guidelines to concrete situations.”

    Here are some concrete situations: On October 7, 2023 Hamas and its affiliates massacred nearly 1200 people and took more than 250 people hostage. Fifty-eight hostages remain in Gaza, one-third believed still alive. This has traumatised Israel in the most profoundly shocking ways, as it would any nation.

    Since October 7, Israel has – in what it claims to be “self-defence” and an attempt to destroy Hamas – killed nearly 53,000 people, including thousands of children, according to health officials in Gaza. Aid workers, first responders and journalists have been deliberately targeted, entire families wiped out, children bombed, shredded and decapitated. Almost all schools, homes, churches, mosques, hospitals, shelters and farmlands have been destroyed, and the majority of the territory’s 2 million people displaced countless times. Ethnic cleansing appears to be next.

    Gaza is a wasteland where – since March 2 – no food, medical supplies nor fuel have been allowed to enter. People slaughter donkeys, horses and cats to survive.

    “My name is Jori Al Areer, I’m 5 years old,” says a stick-thin girl to the camera, her face a rictus grin of despair. “I am from Gaza. I am starving.”

    United Nations experts have described this deliberate starvation campaign as an “ostentatious and merciless … desecration of human life and dignity”.

    Can I write that these scenes are reminiscent of Europe 80 years ago when my own people faced extinction? Under the IHRA definition of antisemitism, perhaps not.

    Today, the fate of millions rests in the hands of an unchecked Israeli government, one that the (Jewish) New York Times Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Thomas Friedman wrote recently, “is not our ally”.

    Time again to call this out, as hundreds of Jewish Australians (including myself) did in an open letter prior to the recent federal election. “For many of us, watching in horror, this is not a crisis we can turn away from,” the letter said. “It cuts to the heart of our Jewish values: the imperative to speak out in the face of injustice.

    “Yet here in Australia, political leaders and commentators have worked to smear those who express solidarity with Palestinians. They claim that criticism of Israel amounts to antisemitism. They suggest that support for Palestinian rights – including from Australian political parties – is an attack on Jewish people.

    “This is as false as it is dangerous. Not all Jews support the policies of the Israeli government or the actions of the Israeli army. We reject the idea that defending Palestinian life and dignity is antisemitic. On the contrary, it is an expression of our human and Jewish ethics. To imply otherwise erases the diversity within our community and exploits Jewish identity to shut down legitimate debate.”

    As I said, it’s time to get clearer on what antisemitism is … and is not.

    David Leser is a Walkley Award-winning writer and author.
     
    #5196     May 16, 2025
  7. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading


    Let's see what Arab Israelis have to say...


    Arab Israelis stand with their country — and reject the rage of Hamas
    https://nypost.com/2025/05/15/opinion/arab-israelis-stand-with-their-country-reject-hamas-hate/

    The college students erupting in anti-Israel protests on campuses across the United States, and the marchers at Thursday’s “All Out for Gaza” demonstration in New York City, repeatedly echo the talking points issued by the terrorists of Hamas.

    But inside Israel, a very different story is unfolding: Millions of Arab citizens are rejecting Hamas and standing with the Jewish state.

    The Hamas-led terror attack on Oct. 7, 2023 wasn’t just a bloodbath — it was a defining moment for Israel.

    Over 1,200 people were murdered. Children shot in their beds. Families torched in their homes. Civilians dragged screaming into Gaza.

    It was the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, and a shock to every decent person on the planet.

    As Israel reeled and the IDF prepared for war, another fear surfaced: Would the country’s fragile Jewish-Arab internal fabric come undone?

    It didn’t.

    In fact, something extraordinary happened — something Hamas didn’t expect.

    Arab Israelis — Israel’s 2-million-strong Arab minority — didn’t riot. They didn’t wave Hamas flags. They didn’t cheer.

    They stood with Israel.

    Arab citizens of Israel don’t all agree with the government. Many have grievances concerning inequality, discrimination and underinvestment.

    But when terrorists stormed Israeli homes and massacred civilians, Arab Israelis didn’t flinch. They chose loyalty.

    Arab medics treated the wounded. Arab mayors calmed tensions.

    Volunteers from Arab towns donated blood, delivered aid and helped evacuate families.

    Arab enlistment in the IDF grew, because many saw clearly that groups like Hamas don’t distinguish between Jew and Arab when attacking Israeli civilians.

    An Israel Democracy Institute poll in November 2023 showed that 70% of Arab citizens felt a sense of belonging to Israel — a dramatic rise from less than 50% just months earlier.

    More recently, a Moshe Dayan Center in December 2024 found that 71.8% of Arab Israelis supported the inclusion of an Arab party in the next governing coalition.

    While Hamas spreads chaos, Arab Israelis are choosing civic responsibility and coexistence.

    What many Western critics miss is this: Israel isn’t just fighting Hamas with missiles — it’s defeating them with reality.

    Israel is a democracy. Imperfect, yes — but one in which Arab citizens vote, serve in Parliament, work in hospitals, sit on the bench and lead classrooms.

    They protest. They debate. They’re part of the national fabric.

    No country in the region offers Arab citizens those rights — not Egypt, not Lebanon, not Syria, and certainly not Hamas-run Gaza.

    In Gaza, Hamas uses children as shields and jails dissenters; In Israel, a $202 million initiative launched in December is investing in Hebrew-language instruction in Arab schools, helping to bridge cultural and economic gaps.

    That’s the Israel Hamas doesn’t want the world to see.

    Since Oct. 7, Arabs and Jews in Israel have marched together under one banner, rejecting terror and believing in a shared future.

    One grassroots movement, Standing Together, brings them side by side — not in some PR campaign, but in a real alliance demanding justice and peace.

    In Israel, unlike Gaza or Lebanon, it’s legal to organize that way — and the effort is gaining ground.

    Arab leadership has also shown real courage. Mansour Abbas, head of the Ra’am party, called Hamas’s massacre “barbaric.”

    No excuses. No hedging.

    Abbas made history in 2021 by joining an Israeli governing coalition — the first Arab party to do so — proving Arab leadership in Israel doesn’t have to be about rage or rejection, but can be constructive, pragmatic, and patriotic.

    And that’s exactly what Hamas fears: Arabs who believe in Israel’s future.

    There’s another, quieter symbol of unity: Bnei Sakhnin, an Arab-majority soccer team in Israel’s top league.

    Arab and Jewish players compete together, cheered on by fans from all backgrounds. The team plays under the Israeli flag.

    It’s not just a sports story — it’s coexistence in motion.

    Oct. 7 was horror. But what’s followed matters, too.

    Israel’s Arab citizens didn’t play into Hamas’ hands. They didn’t retreat into silence or sectarianism.

    They stood with their fellow Israelis. They rejected hate. They embraced a shared fate.

    They proved that Israel — despite its flaws — is still a place where Jews and Arabs can build a future together.

    Israel isn’t falling apart. It’s holding firm.

    In emergency rooms and classrooms, in city halls and at protests, ordinary people are refusing to be divided.

    Hamas may celebrate death.

    But Israel, even in grief, is creating something radical for the Middle East: a shared life.
     
    #5197     May 16, 2025
  8. themickey

    themickey

    I don't support Hamas!
    I don't support Hamas' hateful language or actions toward killing or any physical violence against Israeli citizens.

    But we are talking about Israels behaviour here which is repugnant imo.
     
    #5198     May 16, 2025
  9. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    So is the behavior of the Arab Israelis repugnant? They seem to have strongly backed Israel despite in many ways being second class citizens with justifiable grievances.

    Is the behavior of the Bedouins in Israel also repugnant? After all Hamas murdered a good number of Bedouins on October 7th as well. Bedouins were even honored by Israel for fighting Hamas. The reality is that the Bedouins are an abused underclass who have been mistreated both by Israel and Hamas -- and effectively were caught in the crossfire of the Gaza war.

    However, the official attitude of Bedouins seems to be that Israel is "the lesser of two evils". The Bedouins in the Negev declared a blood vendetta against Hamas and stated their deep hatred to anything Palestinian. An attitude among the Bedouins that appears to evolved to the point currently where they support the expulsion or killing of all the Palestinians in Gaza? Is this repugnant under your definition?
     
    #5199     May 16, 2025
  10. themickey

    themickey

    Hey!
    Stop with your bs sidetracking!
    Israel and America are 'Godly' countries.
    They are meant to be a light unto the world.
    Jews and Christians are meant to lead the blind.

    Aren't they?

    Israel is anything but a good example of 'Godly'.

    That is unless you agree God is a god of war and revenge and hate and love should be tough love.
     
    #5200     May 16, 2025